tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1669762298855511295.post5743150785759174434..comments2023-08-10T08:24:08.460-06:00Comments on Mama Needs Coffee: Why everybody loses when we sugarcoat NFPJennyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07923751596148085363noreply@blogger.comBlogger60125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1669762298855511295.post-59835764270790206162015-03-02T12:39:54.365-07:002015-03-02T12:39:54.365-07:00This: "We live in a society steeped in sexual...This: "We live in a society steeped in sexuality and yet utterly illiterate in matters of the heart."<br />AMEN.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1669762298855511295.post-4800156600261565492015-02-28T13:40:22.056-07:002015-02-28T13:40:22.056-07:00"I just don't think it would be right to ..."I just don't think it would be right to judge another persons heart on the issue."<br /><br />I totally agree. However, the discussion usually goes like this. <br /><br />J: The Catholic Church says to not use artificial birth control, but instead use nfp. <br />L: But you know a Catholic should have serious motives before using nfp, right?<br />J: How dare you judge my reasons! You're judgmental, cruel and have no right to say anything.<br /><br />It's hard to know how to state an opinion when people so quickly start calling the other person judgmental. In my post above, I don't recall judging anyone personally and declaring them guilty before God. And yet in your reply to me you used judge or judgmental on five different occasions, as if I really needed to hear that. Lol. <br /><br />By the way, in your post, you seem to be very sure everything will work out just fine. Catholic couples will pray, seek God for their family size and spacing, they will invariably get it right. It can be taken for granted that nfp is being used correctly. Any family size is the right family size. Letting nature take it's course is no more virtuous than using nfp to have a family of one, if that's what the couple feels God is calling them to, etc. <br /><br />I'm sort of on the other side of that coin. I don't trust myself or others to discern the will of God so easily, especially on something so important as childbearing, with all the cultural pressures to limit one's family size. Or as an analogy, how many Catholics attend Mass each Sunday? Is the number 7% now? So I could be really optimistic that 93% of Catholics have really good reasons for missing Mass each Sunday, or I could be more realistic and say that most Catholics are probably skipping Mass when they shouldn't be, when they have no valid reason (again, as defined by God not me). The same would be true of nfp. I would tend to assume that most Catholics who use nfp are doing it for less than serious reasons (as defined by God, not by me). I would put myself in that category as well. I think there are always serious medical and financial consequences for having children and there is never any pressure exerted on couples to actually have large families. All these pressures to not have large families, a typical Catholic population that is lukewarm (as measured by every statistical indicator by the Church itself), and an nfp process in which couples have to subjectively figure out how many children God wants them to have---and voila, a perfect environment for couples to discern the correct family size every time? <br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986733712538731573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1669762298855511295.post-77490751604093974712015-02-26T11:01:45.330-07:002015-02-26T11:01:45.330-07:00Also, to give encouragement for anyone who may fee...Also, to give encouragement for anyone who may feel like I have at times, a family full of little kids is beautiful and wonderful. It is not a testament to how badly you did NFP, but rather a testament to life and love and the beauty that God can make out of our flawed humanity. Of there is a serious reason to postpone, trust thatGod will provide the grace, and if He is paving the way for a more full household with lots of littles, then trust Him to provide the grace for that too!Jenniferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05574920614842137463noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1669762298855511295.post-56576479266338911482015-02-26T10:54:14.566-07:002015-02-26T10:54:14.566-07:00It's not that we can't have an opinion esp...It's not that we can't have an opinion especially when asked, I just don't think it would be right to judge another persons heart on the issue. There are a lot of reasons why it could be considered a serious enough thing to use NFP to postpone pregnancy. But, those reasons will not look the same in all families. For example, one family may be perfectly peaceful raising a house full of kids on a 30,000/ year salary, while another family may be full of anxiety and stress and unable to raise their family on a budget that to them feels extremely tight and inflexible. Sorry, that analogy seems really weak and rough around the edges the way I wrote it, but hopefully it comes across. Simcha Fisher uses a few analogies like this but of course does a much better job explaining. Ultimately, we cannot judge another's heart. Only God can know their true intentions, which matter greatly here. That being said, I have read a lot of the comments here saying that people who use NFP feel judged for doing so and I would like to point out that those who do not use it, but rather let the babies come as they may more or less, also may feel judged that they are being irresponsible or weak or ignorant or whatever. I find myself feeling this way sometimes. We have 6 kids and one on the way and my oldest is 10. I have certainly felt the need to justify my closely spaced kids to people at times. And really, that is just nonsense. Big families or those who do not use NFP and trust God in their family size do not need to apologize to anyone and neither do those who discern to limit family size and be diligent in the rules of NFP. In and of themselves, neither decision or action is more or less virtuous and both can be a huge act of generosity and sacrifice, depending on where their hearts are, which we cannot know the full extent of, and therefore should not take it upon ourselves to judge. The Church says we must be open to life and not use artificial contraception. We are called to responsible love and parenthood. And that leaves a lot of room for families to come put looking differently, and still be great and right in line with the Church.Jenniferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05574920614842137463noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1669762298855511295.post-81801219819501964162015-02-24T20:23:30.231-07:002015-02-24T20:23:30.231-07:00http://www.fairhavenhealth.com/ovacue-bundle.html ...http://www.fairhavenhealth.com/ovacue-bundle.html So much easier than mucus, cervix, and temp!! Worth every penny!! Works for both those TTC and those trying to avoid pregnancy. It measures your electrolyte levels and from that can pin point when you are fertile both pre and post ovulation and also pinpoints when you ovulate. Doesn't make it any easier when your hubby and you would love to make love and you are in the "no zone" but it is nice having an "outside source" saying when you are! Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11016401431568486676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1669762298855511295.post-12362481343924421782015-02-24T14:37:13.144-07:002015-02-24T14:37:13.144-07:00I agree and disagree in you saying we as Catholics...I agree and disagree in you saying we as Catholics should not judge each other in regard to childbearing. I agree because all things should be done in love. But I disagree because I don't think questioning NFP use in certain situations is judgmental or wrong. <br /><br />When your daughter grows up, and comes to you and says, "Should Tom and I use NFP right now?" What are you going to respond? "Well dear, go and pray and I'm not going to give you any advice and whatever you decide is going to be right"? I'm sure you will want to give her sound advice in relation to whether they do indeed have serious reasons. Your daughter might wonder if it's irresponsible to have babies 1 year apart. Is this true? What is Catholic teaching? Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986733712538731573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1669762298855511295.post-80488938317711807942015-02-24T14:30:16.377-07:002015-02-24T14:30:16.377-07:00The teaching of the church boils down to saying th...The teaching of the church boils down to saying that if the couple thinks they have a serious, grave, valid, just (all these words have been used) reason, then they can use NFP. <br /><br />But ultimately, God is the judge of what a serious reason is. The Church can't possibly judge each person's reason. But just because a couple prays and thinks they have a just or serious reason, it does not follow that God agrees with that. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986733712538731573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1669762298855511295.post-60686151920205018772015-02-24T14:26:56.056-07:002015-02-24T14:26:56.056-07:00Mandi,
I read your reply and I get it. But it sou...Mandi,<br /><br />I read your reply and I get it. But it sounds as if you're saying, "Anytime NFP is brought up, no one is allowed to criticize it or provide other alternatives---if they do, then they are personally judging everyone's private lives and they are "generalizing, judgmental, and condemning others." Wow. To say that perhaps many couples who are struggling with NFP could instead try to just not use NFP---that's wrong? Really? It's wrong to even suggest it? I didn't see where Laura personally accused anyone of using NFP for wrong motives. <br /><br />The choices in married life seem to be, use artificial birth control or use NFP. There is a third way. I don't see why it's wrong to name it, encourage it, and suggest it as an alternative. If someone has a serious reason to use NFP, then great. If they don't, or if NFP (as the original article says) is very difficult or causing stress and strain on the marriage, then maybe they should consider not using NFP. That does NOT mean they should get on the Pill. But I just think that in these discussions, everyone just assumes that it's either the Pill or NFP. It's not possible to actually just live life without birth control of some kind, or so it sounds. And wrath comes down on anyone who even suggests it. <br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986733712538731573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1669762298855511295.post-54059481031356431812015-02-24T10:52:44.388-07:002015-02-24T10:52:44.388-07:00Wow, lucky you - so you don't have to use NFP ...Wow, lucky you - so you don't have to use NFP or worry about "weirdness" or charting or "dire circumstances." You are truly lucky. I know very few people for whom their family size, budget, provisions are not a consideration. And for some, it's a very SERIOUS consideration. You're basically making Jenny's point for her. The Church allows for NFP in serious circumstances. You cannot know what a serious circumstance is to another couple when looking from the outside in. You cannot know what their family size does or does not say about their heart or faithfulness to Church teaching. Yes, there are some who misuse or mis-interpret the use of NFP - but, how are you to know that unless you know them personally and have discussed that matter? We who are practicing Catholic (whether using NFP or not) are part of a larger cultural war against life, against love, against marriage, against truth. Can we not support one another and pray for conversion of heart rather than jumping to conclusions and judgments? Ari Mackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12353619692848596247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1669762298855511295.post-77912565230630394082015-02-24T07:32:22.234-07:002015-02-24T07:32:22.234-07:00Thank you for your beautiful post! My husband and...Thank you for your beautiful post! My husband and I entered married life with a plan for 3 children...then God opened our hearts and we decided to turn our family size over to Him. We have since been blessed with 7 children on earth and 7 children in Heaven! Has it been an easy journey, no, but have we grown immensely in our faith and trusting in God, yes!<br />We are a military family so we move a lot and our family size is always a topic of discussion. People are quick with their comments, showing us how hurtful judgments can be. Although we try to laugh most comments off, the harsh ones sting a little more giving us and our children an important lesson in humility. When asked about our family size we respond with what we believe... "Our family size is NOT based on a number, but rather on obeying God and His design for our family". <br />It is sad to say, but I think there is a large dissention in the ranks of Catholic Churches and therefore families about NFP. We have seen it through the states we have lived and heard it from various families. While large families get ridiculed for not using it, families who need it for health and other reasons get ridiculed for using it. It is heartbreaking to see it bring about such conflict among each of us. Please prayerfully encourage your family and your church to revisit this issue and provide guidance so that we can all be doing His will. <br />God has a beautiful plan for each family and whether that is for 0 or 20 children, we pray that everyone seek His guidance through prayer. <br />amwellshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00647004130286021931noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1669762298855511295.post-48656879753716420102015-02-23T19:39:40.635-07:002015-02-23T19:39:40.635-07:00Simcha Fisher did a great job of explaining Church...Simcha Fisher did a great job of explaining Church teaching and helping people understand different situations. Her book "The Sinner's Guide to Natural Family Planning" was a great blessing to me at a low point. :)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11049881901060032202noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1669762298855511295.post-25910263817411198912015-02-23T19:38:51.492-07:002015-02-23T19:38:51.492-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11049881901060032202noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1669762298855511295.post-85023402887278656982015-02-23T19:35:43.823-07:002015-02-23T19:35:43.823-07:00I agree that the devil can cruelly twist good mess...I agree that the devil can cruelly twist good messages and truly damage people. I think I am that case in point. I have shed so many tears in my 7 years of marriage over sex in general--not even always just because of the difficulty of NFP. We did everything "by the book" and expected something very different than what we got, even before reality and the unexpected tragedies and crosses of life hit. I trust His timing and His grace to lead my marriage to holiness and to that "Heaven's Song" that God means it to be, but these first 7 years have been a huge learning curve for us. I wish I had read something like years ago when I was the Girl Who Did Everything Right wondering What We Were Doing So Wrong That It Was This Hard?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11049881901060032202noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1669762298855511295.post-24587587215551090512015-02-23T15:41:45.102-07:002015-02-23T15:41:45.102-07:00I think, Laura, that you are very wrong to assume ...I think, Laura, that you are very wrong to assume that what is more sacrificial for you is what is more sacrificial for everyone. Same with nicer. Not being able to feed your kids or pay your bills with 8 kids isn't as nice as feeding your kids and paying your bills with 5. <br /><br />And uh, we use NFP and there's no guilt or accusations. If you see that happening in a marriage NFP is not to blame.Bonniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01805401564651493025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1669762298855511295.post-4183880785405305862015-02-23T14:06:23.418-07:002015-02-23T14:06:23.418-07:00My original comment was swallowed up by the interw...My original comment was swallowed up by the interwebs. <br /><br />Thank you so much for this beautiful post. This is such a needed message. It does not help when the person best known for popularizing the theology of the body has book covers like this http://www.amazon.com/Heavens-Song-Sexual-Love-Meant/dp/1934217468/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8 and this http://www.amazon.com/Fill-These-Hearts-Universal-Longing/dp/0307987132/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8.<br /><br />I think many people are damaged by the overly sexualized reading of the TOB given by some and also by the overly romanticized vision of married life. It is hard and we shouldn't sugarcoat it as you say. Thanks for writing this! A timely and important message. Cheeky Lawyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10600975905198499311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1669762298855511295.post-69170421207525109822015-02-23T14:03:38.399-07:002015-02-23T14:03:38.399-07:00Also, here is a great article that helps to push b...Also, here is a great article that helps to push back on those who think the Church's teaching on when NFP can be used is in only the most dire circumstances.<br /><br />http://www.hprweb.com/2008/03/humanae-vitae-grave-motives-to-use-a-good-translation/Cheeky Lawyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10600975905198499311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1669762298855511295.post-60939456843277169812015-02-23T13:21:09.697-07:002015-02-23T13:21:09.697-07:00Perhaps the main thing to work on as a community i...Perhaps the main thing to work on as a community is to stop judging others. I spent the first 8 years of my marriage or so, feeling judged both by those who contracept, and those who advocate NFP. Judged by some for not using contraception thus having lots of babies, and judged by others for obviously being ignorant of this whole nfp thing and thus having lots of babies! The Church does not say we must avoid pregnancy for x amount of time and have x amount of children, lest we be irresponsible, and She does not say we must have all the babies we possibly could, lest we be ungenerous. Families come in all different shapes and sizes, and it is our job as Catholics to follow the teachings of the Church and not contracept, to pray, to trust God, and to love and support others. And within that, there are so many ways for it all to turn out right. I always figure, if its hard, there must be something right about it! It is undoubtedly both generous and responsible to either, through discernment and with trusting God, limit the number of children you have, or, have allllll the babies you possibly could ;) I suppose, my husband and I generally find ourselves in the "having lots of babies" camp, and it has been a real gift to us. He has given us the blessing of having lots of children and has paved the way for us to do so, but the way has been strewn with difficulties, which have blessedly drawn us closer to Him and to each other. Whatever we do, if we do it with eyes on Him "seeking His Kingdom", He will guide our way and provide the graces necessary for it. Thanks be to God, it is a difficult and beautiful journey. Congratulations Jenny on your new baby! I am right there with you, 24 weeks along with baby number 7 :) Jenniferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05574920614842137463noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1669762298855511295.post-88075711170460166502015-02-23T12:49:19.471-07:002015-02-23T12:49:19.471-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Jenniferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05574920614842137463noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1669762298855511295.post-80628401963749217582015-02-23T12:02:53.166-07:002015-02-23T12:02:53.166-07:00Laura,
Here is a great article that explains why m...Laura,<br />Here is a great article that explains why many people think they need "grave" reason when the vatican translation asks for "serious" reason. there is a difference between the two. http://www.hprweb.com/2008/03/humanae-vitae-grave-motives-to-use-a-good-translation/<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04547434800159222849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1669762298855511295.post-86660226480470325832015-02-23T11:45:50.643-07:002015-02-23T11:45:50.643-07:00The best way to cultivate a Catholic community in ...The best way to cultivate a Catholic community in which NFP is only used for serious reasons (and the Church used "serious reasons" and not "dire circumstances") is to be an example of a couple who has been richly blessed (not necessarily in children, unfortunately many couples never prevent pregnancy and still have few or no children) by never using NFP. And by all means, if someone shares their struggles with NFP, feel free to say, "If you don't have a serious reason to do it, don't! God will bless you for being open!" But that's not exactly what your comments were. I would have had no problem with a comment that simply stated just that, but your comment came across as generalizations and assumptions that were judgmental and critical. Remember, we are all Catholics striving for the same thing - heaven. I have no doubt that you mean well, but perhaps you should reconsider how you are sharing your message and see where you can treat others with less generalizations, judgment, and condemnation and more compassion and concern for their individual circumstances.Mandi Richardshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14641577291206420549noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1669762298855511295.post-6445653643960464182015-02-23T11:45:17.713-07:002015-02-23T11:45:17.713-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Mandi Richardshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14641577291206420549noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1669762298855511295.post-20758750049529351722015-02-23T11:45:01.984-07:002015-02-23T11:45:01.984-07:00Laura, I think that you are really well-intentione...Laura, I think that you are really well-intentioned and I think that you are seeking understanding, so I want to share with you why comments like yours are so hurtful. Also, I was where you were at one point. I spent the first several months of our marriage using NFP simply because I wanted to be a good example of "NFP works" and because I knew there were some people who would disapprove if we got pregnant right away. But then I saw the error in that and we had our daughter and I become a bit anti-NFP. It seemed like all the people we knew who used NFP didn't seem to have good reasons to use it and I was very judgmental of them, NFP, and the "contraceptive mentality". And then my husband and I had some serious reasons to use NFP and I realized that I was probably very harshly judging couples who prayed and agonized over the decision of whether or not to use NFP to postpone pregnancy and that even if on the outside it seemed like they could have more children, I probably had NO IDEA what they were going through. So now, I give couples the benefit of the doubt. Most couples who use NFP care profoundly about their Catholic faith and their relationship with God, if they didn't, they would take the much "easier" route of contraception. So I assume that those couples who use NFP (especially for any length of time) probably do have serious reasons to use it or why else would they put themselves through that misery? <br /><br />Anyway, on to the reason why I think your comment is more harmful than helpful. For those of us who through prayer and discernment have come to the decision to use NFP for a time to postpone pregnancy, there isn't a lot of support. And anytime there is support in the form of articles or blog posts or support groups, there are always comments similar to yours. Comments which imply that the vast majority of NFP users are selfish, ungenerous, unsacrificial, and "distorting the Church's real teachings on marriage and family". And these comments are coming from other Catholics, who are supposed to support and love us. Do they not know how difficult our situations are? How not only do we have to abstain from sex with our spouse, but we have to because of circumstances beyond our control - unemployment, disease, depression, etc. Not only do we have to bear the burden of NFP but we also are constantly judged and tested by our fellow Catholics - "Are your reasons good enough???" Sometimes we're even point blank told our reasons aren't good enough, even though we are following the teachings of the Church. The decision to use NFP is between two spouses and God, and sometimes a trusted priest or counselor if we need help making that decision - why must we prove to the Catholics around us that our reasons are enough? Why can't you give couples the benefit of the doubt that they are using it for the right reasons, or if they are not that they will quickly discover on their own that they are not and stop using it (just as my husband and I did)? Mandi Richardshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14641577291206420549noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1669762298855511295.post-16405240859027340542015-02-23T10:45:38.287-07:002015-02-23T10:45:38.287-07:00You know what, I owe you an apology, Laura. I took...You know what, I owe you an apology, Laura. I took you to task for a lack of charity and then I didn't extend the same to you, so I'm sorry.<br /><br />I'm just treading water here with a 4 year old, a 2 year old, a 1 year old, and #4 cooking. And they're all home sick right now which makes the day...rosy. I'm just weary of the friendly fire so many Catholics (well intentioned or not) are lobbing at each other via the internet these days. I think it's great if you guys don't need NFP, and I think your second comment was much more nuanced and less inflammatory. But I do hold couples who practice NFP in high regard, and this piece was written for them, who get little to no support, from the culture at large, certainly, but too often from their own Church. Jennyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07923751596148085363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1669762298855511295.post-19306546004917290662015-02-23T09:09:02.699-07:002015-02-23T09:09:02.699-07:00Jenny,
I'm really seeking understanding. Sor...Jenny, <br />I'm really seeking understanding. Sorry if it seemed unkind.<br /><br />Being raised in a multigenerational large Catholic family, I feel that the NFP crowd is distorting the Church's real teachings on marriage and family, and it's hurting individuals and the Church. And so I am trying to understand.<br /><br />Serious health problems, mental illness and fertility issues certainly may warrant the use of NFP, but it's not a forgone conclusion that they do. I do not at all assume others are in my position, but I also do not assume that NFP is wise in all cases.<br /><br />My observation in Steubenville is that NFP is not used in dire circumstances most of the time. This is the sort of NFP use that seems like an awfully lot of work for a lesser good. NFP may not be for everyone. I'd sure like to be the lady who tells a couple who's struggling because they think the Church expect's them to do it "If it's making you crazy, ditch it!" I know people who stopped using it and admitted they were out of a sense of obligation, fear, and ungenerosity. So that's who I want to encourage. If that's not you, no worries.<br /><br />I won't bother you any farther - I have to go do school. Thanks for answering!laurahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02061135017606264548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1669762298855511295.post-79973424394225613512015-02-23T07:59:16.016-07:002015-02-23T07:59:16.016-07:00Generally when somebody prefaces a statement with ...Generally when somebody prefaces a statement with "I'm not trying to ..." and then still goes ahead and says the thing they ought not, well, it still comes across crystal clear that way.<br /><br />I'm glad you've never found the need to practice NFP. Of course it's a sacrifice, and of course it isn't easy. But thankfully, the Church doesn't share your low opinion of it and presents it to her children as a gift and a tool that many, many couples find necessary. Praise God if you're free from the burden of serious health problems, mental illness, and fertility issues. But don't presume your situation identical to everybody else's, and please, don't make sweeping generalizations about what is more charitable, more sacrificial, and just plain "nicer." <br /><br />NFP may not be for everyone, (and I'd count myself lucky if I ever arrived in that place myself) but it certainly does not preclude openness, generosity, and niceness. Geez.Jennyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07923751596148085363noreply@blogger.com